FAQ's or Common email conversations

Masters in Kung Fu

Consider: to be a master in Yong Chun Crane, you would need firstly to master the physical side of the excercises, the cultural side ( i.e. movement names and origins ), then to master the medical side of the system. In addition, I would expect you to have a rich historical context of the system, and a historic relevance yourself within the system.

As a master you should be able to pass down the system. Even on a simplistic level, the learning of many forms, with each associated name, and relevance from a cultural viewpoint is almost impossible for anyone who is not Chinese.

People say that this is not necessary to be able to use the system, but then you would be a fight instructor or the equivalent, but not the master of the system.

Of course you can go and beat up an old master and the whole school of his students if you are that way inclined. You could even burn the school, and break all the weapons.But he will still be the master and you will still be a thug. Many masters used to be thugs.

This is one of the things I love about Euchi Ryu. Kanbun / Kanie took many things but were honest enough to put it together and call it their system. They did not masquerade as Crane Practitioners although aknowledged their heritage. They have then practiced to the extent that they have found their own way of movement. In their own rights they were indeed masters.

To confuse this more, in China you may well learn from your family even if your dad has done it when he was young - or your granddad. i.e. there are no designated 'teachers' or gradings or insurance policies or associations of recognised instructors. I have found sometimes teaching is a group activity where it is difficult to even hear the teacher for all the other opinions bouncing around the room.

In addition to this, great masters have had the arts as a part of their lives, not as their whole lives. This again may not be so important in other systems but in my lineage of Yong Chun Crane there is a balance to be maintianed. This includes seeking neither fame or profit from the art. If you don't believe me go and read the old books!

One may say that not all of the above is necessary - in which case go ahead and call youself a master of something or other ( making it up is a common way to do this ) - but certainly not of Yong Chun White Crane.

San Zhan and San Chiem in karate

I am assuming to that explore this you must be a pretty Tan tien / tension focussed practitioner.

Although the weight is 70% back, this is not a dead weight at all. When you add the large horizontal tensioning forces to the stance, the overall tensions as composites are much more evenly distributed.

Effectiveness of the system

So anyone who thinks the tiger is providing the aggression, and the Crane is the evasive, light limited damage techniques is certainly not practicing the same crane that I have seen in Yong Chun.

There is another thing though, which is that you have to ask yourself what the aim of the system you are practicing is. For me I have no doubt that if I did a combination of Judo, JuJitsu and Muy Tai as much as I do Crane the I would be a more formidable fighter, ( although certainly not when armed with my double swords and facing a spear attack! ) but this would not satisfy for me, the immense cultural interlinking body of work and people that is the arts. In the end I am sure I have met many more interesting people through trying to study a small family system then I would have had I looked to be good in the ring or on the street. You have to know what you are looking for if you use the word effective, and my advice would be to try to guess also what you will be looking for in 10 years time.

Weight a minute

As the skill of the opponent increases, then it is more difficult to hold your own against someone 20% heavier.

Big people need to develop their skill very carefully as they are constantly from early days able to use their force instead which impedes their skill development.

Kicks in Crane ( for niggle )

We do not practice kicks as much as other system. I know of 6 kicks from my forms. But I only know a small part of the system so that does not mean much.

But to say that we do not kick is about as true as saying that there are no grappeling techniques in karate. It is riddled with those techniques if you know what you are looking for ( the Tekki's are probably just one long exercise like this ).

There are people wiser than I who think that the Crane kicks are influential in some of the other systems famous for their leg work. Take Huang Fei Hong, who was famous for his shadowless kick. In the films this is the sideways flying thingy which we all know and love. But in fact Mu Yin Ti ( shadowless kicks ) covers a whole range of kicks which are hidden from view one way or another ( hence the name ). These are the kicks that Huang was famous for. From the 6 kicks I have done in forms, 3 of them fall into this category.

When it comes to practicing them we do not do this much - rather using the kicks as a form of practicing the basic stances. There are a few reasons for this:

1. I do not understand / trust kicks. On the one hand you have a Tai Kwon Do chap who is very good, on the other a Wing Chun chap who will tell you kicks are not so good. The karate people are kicking with their instep, and the Muy Tai people with their shins.

2. I think it ends up close. The Muy Thai people are kicking to get in close. That is where the work is so that is where I concentrate. I think the Muy Thai people know what they are doing.

3. Time!! - In a 2 hour session, we barely have time to do some basics, go through San Zhan, have a very cursory look at the other 2 forms which we are doing at the moment, do a little conditioning and then some push hand work. Even in 2 hours I feel that we do none of these areas much service. With only 3 short forms, and some basic exercises we hardly ever have time to learn something new. Especially if someone new has come along and we are then trying to bring them up to speed a little. - to add leaping around kicking to this is just too much for us. It is fine if you are a monk up a temple with oodles of time to practice , but we are ordinary people with lives. We are the people which Crane is designed for.

4. Everyone can do them. Get a puch bag. Read a book. Kick it a lot. Train. Watch videos. Then you will be quite good at kicking! - certainly no help from me required. Kids will teach themselves to kick. A lovely lad came to train with me. He was a kickboxer. He asked me why we did not do punching and kicking. But he was a kick boxer. He already knew how to do that better than me!! - I could have taught him San Zhan and rooting - but of course he left after 1 lesson.

5. They are so difficult to do properly. It is not difficult to kick. But then it is not difficult to stand in a stance - or is it? We spend ages working on stance. We may not have many techniques - but we will try to do them well. A proper stance is so hard. But when I kick I am on one leg - an interesting excercise in rooting but one which I do not understand and certainly am not qualified to explain to others looking for guidance.

Breathing

Whereas most people say 'use the Dan Tien' to drive the force, we say the same but with a caveat that you should not commit the Dan Tien. It is the problem that whatever you use you give to the partner. So when I push hands with Tai Chi people where they are rolling around the Dan Tien then this means for me I can feel a way in at any given moment right through to their centre. It is similar with the breathing I think. Although it is part of what is powering the force, there should be a distinct de-coupling between it and the end result, else it is possible to find a direct route through to it and it ( and hence your centre ) can be directly disrupted. This disruption and shielding is one of our main objective.

It is often the case that an end effect is defined as an objective which is to skew the perspective of the exercises out of balance - e.g. we do it because....x,y,z. We should be happy just to say 'we do it'. When each person then has a,b,c,....y,z effects they have noticed or we percieve in them if they have not, then we should be happy to talk about cause and effect.

I think it is important not to get hung up on the breathing and analysis which, if of any use at all, is better retrospectively once the skill has already been achieved through observation and physical practice.

Haku Tsuru

One word though - if you think you are doing Haku Tsuru, visit your teachers teacher. Then his teacher. The truth is at the source not in a forms seminar. This is not to invalidate what people are practicing which is often good stuff in itself, just to say it most often not what they think it is. ( i.e. the secret form of etc etc etc in which all source etc etc and with which etc etc ).

Also it is easier to find connections than to disprove connections. - wave your arms around in enough positions and some of the will overlap with your neighbours positions. That does not mean a connection. There are 2 reasons why I do not think Haku Tsuru has much to do with Crane. The first is that most of the time people were learning crane in Taiwan or China, Japan was an occupying power. I hardly think the Chinese ( who HATED the Japanese ) would have been showing family combat secrets to the invading force.

The second is that it just looks nothing like Crane from fujian or China at all. Fu Jian Crane is undoubtably a stong influence in many systems - this is clear from principles, or movement or power emphasis, but when you see Haku it just don't look like anything to do with Fu Jian crane. You could find half a dozen systems which are more likely to be Fu Jian Crane related than Japanese Haku Tsuru. Of course this is only from what I have seen - If you disagree - please send me a clip!

Again Euchi is fantastic as it has not fallen into this trap. In fact I think most people should just go and study Euchi properly and then they would not be 'dragons searching for the pearl!'

Yong Chun and Wing Chun ( for the Chu crew )

There are many many people in Hong Kong and Canton who know more about this than me. I think it is pretty clear - Ng Mui ( or whatever her name was ) trained in Yong Chun White Crane. She teaches a girl who then takes the name Wing Chun ( pretty big hint ). It is like that scene in the life of Brian 'if it's not too personal - how much more bloody personal can you get? ' ( substitute obviouse for personal )

Learning from videos

However, one thing videos are good for is preperation. Time spent with a teacher memorising a form is to some extent wasted. If time is limited with a good teacher ( and it always is! ) then it is better to go over a form you know with them, than to try to get them to teach you a new form. Of course I am as guilty as anyone for trying to learn new forms - but I am a young headstrong grasshopper.....

Applications

Historic application is intersting. Here is a thing - you consider that arm conditioning is not important - then you pick up your first set of double swords , tuck them under you arm in the 'wing' position and hit a large piece of wood. Bet you wish you had done some arm conditioning now!!

When it comes to forms, then there are some positions which are generic, i.e. the applications flow from good position work. So you find that in the early forms ( which is when people most want to know what things are for ) the applications are many as the forms are more advanced / more the provision of re-ocurring positions. Whereas in the later forms, the applications become more specific. So what you have is the basic forms being in this aspect more advanced than the later forms. Once you realise this, then you have to choose where to spend your time, and many people ( myself included ) decide what is more definitive, and useful for the system is the early forms.

If you want to know "what is the application of this" then you are asking:

• Can you find an application for this in a fight?
• Did your teacher tell you an application?
• How does it apply in training?
• What does it train in application?
• Do you agree with your teachers application?
• Have you modified it for your own application?
• Have you tried it? ( if it does now work have you explained that when you teach it? )
• Is it a generic application or a specific one?

And then apply who, what , where , when , why and soon you will forget what the original move was anyway.

We have moves which I really do not see how the applications I have been shown could possibly work. But then I probably dont train enough or in the right way. And this is another thing you see in many schools, somebody learns an application, checks a box and passes it on. But what they dont do is train that hard at it. And without the training nothing comes naturally or even works at all. But we still proudly maintain our single finger strike positions with the explanation that if strike a soft target we are going to be all right, and that somehow it will be more effective that just hitting them as hard as we can!! ( But for a really good single and thought out finger application go see Ian Armstrong ).

And most people want to know an application of some fancy move, but ask first if you know the application for the locked down thumb position what pervades many of the arts.

Blindly practicing forms with no idea of applications is empty work. It is better to have the wrong application in mind ( provided you have tested out that it works ) than to have none. This is how forms change. So for me the training is having an application in mind, but the learning is finding out what my teacher's application is. ( and also his teacher's other students etc for cross reference ). If I were lucky enough to always have my teacher to hand then I would not have to go through this step. But may be it is an interesting step to go through as it makes you think. More often than not the applications are exactly what you think they would be.

It is also very likely that application only becomes apparent when the system is finished. Pushing hands - mortal combat or just another way to say hello?

It might sound naive to say that the full application of the art is more social. But our motto is 'Yi Wu Huai You' - through the arts meeting friends so that should be the first application we keep in mind ( as the broken and bloodied mass of our opponent hurtles in slow motion through the nearest plate glass window ).

The infernal internals

Chi Gong and other internal arts is great stuff without the mumbo jumbo!!

I would sooooo love to be proved wrong in this - please please call me if you can do this so I can believe once more in Yoda....

Why don't you warm up?

I am quite happy going from nothing to a full power San Zhan. Just as well as if I ever had to use this stuff this is what would happen.

Clearly there are some competitive sports like boxing and judo where this serves a purpose, but in most kung fu and karate clubs the warm up is time wasted - that is to say the effect is not redundant, but there are more relevant ways to achieve the effect.

My teacher does not want me to visit other teachers..

Teachers are just people. You are not a child. You do what you want. Read old chinese stories then you see the tradition has many different players and paths but really exactly like today. When I am young I behave like a young student. This is my role. If I want to learn too fast that is good because I am a young student and I should be doing that. If I sneak out at nighttime to practice or meet friends from another place then that is good for if I don't do it now then I never will. Now I am not so young so do not need to do this. But I am glad I did.

My teacher is happy for me to look and travel and help his family because he knows that I only want to study one style. He knows this as well because I am very free and always come back and help the style and the name. I meet many people with no connection and then 'POW' I find a connection and the family is stronger / wider. In a couple of weeks an American may come to study for a while. He has already been to study in Malaysia and Taiwan and with some other people I want to meet.

Some times I train with other style ( e.g. Tai Kwan Do with many kicks ) and they are fighting and I think "my style is not so good for that kicking" - but it is no problem - part of what defines the style is what it is bad at. I certainly know what we are good at is enough to compensate for what we are bad at for me.

I think a good teacher is very confident in what / why they do and has a good perspective on what the arts are really there for. If my students found a better style for them I would be happy for them. I would also want to know why the like it more. I do not have time to find these things for myself.

There is nothing to be gained without training. Anyone can watch and try but without work there is nothing. If what I do is good work then it is good that other people do it too. If I believe that what I train is good for my community then I encourage other people to train it. If someone does only little training and then says they can show what I do properly to other people then I think this is wrong and I will speak to the person - but it does not matter because in the end the questions come back to me and I can show in 2 minutes what I mean. If someone does only a little training and says to another person 'we do this but I am very bad and do not understand or may be MY understading is wrong and cannot show you properly - to understand this you must see my teacher.' then this is very good and how the styles should touch initially. This is what you did here and that is the correct way.

We are now 5 more students and very comfortable practicing. When you come back to the island if you do not come back and play with us then your will be part of the 'closed mind and closed door' set of practitioners who do not laugh enough because they know so much for certain. But we know how silly we are and how serious we are and how nice it is to train and play with people who are also nice and drink and smoke with them as well.

But if you train this way too much then your face will look like Pan Shr Fu in one of my favourite pictures attached ( not enough sleep - too much fun - and we have little idea what we are doing / where we are going - but with a smile because we are all safe ).

Teachers / people always can have answers. But that is easy. It is also easy to say 'I don't know' but people don't seem to do that so often. I find certainty convinces 99% of the people I meet, but being uncertain only may be 25% - but that is the 25% I want to meet and train with. This filter has worked very well for me in the past. We are young ( you are much yonger ) and if your mind does not ask "why why why why why" every second now , then when are are good enought to be asking these questions it will certainly not be asking "why why why" and then you will be in the "because because because" camp. I have met people who start in the "because" camp for 10, 20 30 years in the arts, and then only start to ask "why" and then are very sad because they know they have wasted too much time and can never really catch up because they are too old / busy / etc etc etc.

A person is like these things or not. You cannot ( should not ) teach your own attitude, but you can show different attitudes to people and they can choose. But then they would normally find out their own attitudes in the end anyway ( I hope! ). If you hide your attitude then there are no examples right or wrong. So when you come here and show us your attitude it is nice and we can learn a little from you too.

( reading this about a year later it sounds like I was stoned when I wrote this which is quite possible. )

What I kow ( a disclaimer ) and why I dont get disheartened

There is so much certainly in the world!! - I am not a source of good reference. I am studying a family system and do what I can to keep it true. But I know so little. Answers seem hard to come by and contradiction abounds in the most basic excercises. So how does everyone else know so damn much?!?

Especially when it comes to Crane there are people will expound the differences and comparisons between 2 systems. But even to know one system a little is so hard. Take one move. Learn the chinese. Work out an application ( find out you are wrong ). Practice like a demon. Gain a little ground. But still know nothing for sure.

For me with this system it is really like climbing a mountain with lots of peaks. For example one of the 72 basic techniques is called 'the goddess of compassion sits' . This is the name of a move from a form I know. But also there are basics with names like 'Chi Na' - the seizing / gripping stuff. So it could be that each one is a distinct technique, or each one an area which also has a corresponding technique.

For this reason, I have come to the conclusion that the aim of practice has to be the process of practicing. One of our guiding rules of things to avoid ( there are 10 of them ) is 'Don't be rusty' . The aim of study has to be because the act of studying is reward in itself. For it may be that you end up with boxes inside boxes, and the final box then just becomes the first box and you think you have been wasting your time. Of course every peak you scale gives a better view of the valley ( and peaks on other mountains ). And who knows, one time you might just make a really nice little summit - but always I think in the shadow of the unscalable peak.

Where a system lets people down is they actually get to the summit. This is a shallow system! - and that is why most people stop training. I am completely confident that I have a life time of study inside this little family system. This is not to say that I will not ( and sometimes do! ) think 'what a complete waste of time' partly because of all the contradictions, and partly because I know that my natural ability and time / effort I spend will mean that I never get to a level in the system I would like to.

And then when I am too old to move any more I might have time to look at the medical / cultural stuff.....

To be confident about training, you must go to source.

The reason I do not get disheartend is because I know I can go and see my teacher and he will have an answer. The answer may be 'I have forgotten' but that is where the buck stops. I can then ask all the older practitioners there. If at that point I have got nowhere then I could really put it in a 'forgotten methodsof crane' folder for this lineage. The method itself may be crap! - but for this particular system it will be a hole. Not important though. Also there are very old books which detail the whole system. Again, they are sort of notes. But at least it is a whole entity and not like many karate systems an unravelling amalgamation of influences and ideas. That is why pratitioners everywhere are playing 'chasing your own tail' for some secret.

One is hopefully learning more the system and less your teacher's own ideas and thinkings. What you really learn from you teacher is the correct context of the system in your life, and what is the correct way to practice. This is the way it works. Normally when you have a teacher who has split from their teacher you find out this is exactly what their own teacher did. People do not only learn the physical side by example. Systems which are purely guided by principles ( e.g. Jeet Kun Do and to some extent Wing Chun ) work in a different way in the long run.

The amalgamation may be more effective - whatever. But for me, like learning a well structured philosophy, you can see hopefully when you get to the end what the beginning principles were about. For this I think you must appreciate that this is one lineage of one system from one country and not the 'killer system' of legend. Euchi is like this as it is still tight about one family. When you play down the context of the art you study to the right level, you re-inforce all the right reasons for learning it.

One of the hardest things to get to grips with is that you WILL NOT LEARN THE WHOLE SYSTEM. If this is gonna drive you crazy - go and do somthing else!! But you can turn this on its head if you like study and say - 'Great - that means I can study for ever! '.

What I do see is that you are seriously trying to build a picture of Crane and doing so in your own way and who is to say that it is not a good way - certainly not I !! - I would say that you have to go to source. Either you can get a broad overview of other peoples interpretations, or you can find a good teacher and dig deep into his system. Crane is not formalisation, but exploration and change from a solid base. Our last system rule is simply 'Change'. For me the characterisation of crane is not just the analysis of the system movements but more the process by which it is taught and practiced. This includes such concepts as 'you can't teach it commercially' for that is not what it has ever been designed for.

In the end by talking to people like me and the commonly referenced few people that keep cropping up in the West with school you are dealing with very imperfect second hand knowledge. Much better - go to China and find some senile old bloke who is trying to remember his old forms with arthritic hand positions - but invigorated by your interest and desperate not to disgrace either you, himself or his teacher by making up TOO much himself! The process is not about finding absolute knowledge as much as being absolutely sure where what you do know comes from.

Then there is the question of certainty. When somebody says 'this should be done in this way' they mean either:

1. this is how my teacher taught it.
2. this is how I think it should be done.
3. this is how I want you to do it.
4. this is how it worked for me.
It is not important for me what the reason is - and I try to explain to my students which one is my reason if they want to know. but most teachers do not say it - they just say:

1.this is right and another way is wrong.

So another reason things are lost in the arts is because teachers are not honest. The question becomes not whether the art is alive, but WHAT art is living in the practice. Mostly teachers do this because of pressure of money, or they feel insecure about what they are teaching.

I feel more certain about these issues, than the correct way to do an uppercut punch!